Geen categorie

I had a chance to talk with german DJ/producer Eddie Thoneick along with his Instagram live audience. Here’s a paraphrased version of our conversation where we discuss success, mental health, and the best resources for your artist career. Watch the full video here! 

Eddie: So glad we’re able to chat given these circumstances! For everybody who doesn’t know you, can you give us a quick introduction?

Joey: I’ve been a DJ and music producer for over ten years. I started at the bottom DJing at weddings and later built a career in music by working with artists like Hardwell and releasing on labels such as Revealed, Spinnin, Toolroom, and more. Eventually, at the height of my career in 2014, I ended up burning out. I just felt unhappy with my current lifestyle as a DJ and artist. After that, I started educating myself, and now I run a business called Artist Coaching, which helps other artists maintain stability both mentally and in their careers. 

Eddie: We need to have these conversations and educate our audience on how not to make the same mistakes. 

Joey: I think what also makes it difficult is that people often don’t understand how an international DJ can face these challenges. To them, you’re living your best life on social media. Why would you be unhappy?

Joey: It’s personal; every artist has their manual, and they need to figure out how their manual works. When you can understand yourself, you’ll be more prepared to make decisions like signing a label deal or touring. I say this because, for most of my career, I was just listening to other people. I was distracted by the money and never really took the time to reflect on my decisions. You can’t expect other people to know when you’re unhappy; in the end, you’re the one responsible, in my opinion.

Eddie: If you had one tip for new artists, what would that be?

Joey: Learn to say no. This sounds really easy, but when you’re an aspiring artist, and you’ve been working for like five years to get at a certain level, and suddenly your dreams come true, it’s hard to say no to specific deals or opportunities. 

Trust your gut; your gut never lies. For example, if a record label deal is financially nice, but something feels off, you have to trust what’s best for you. Sometimes, it’s too late, and those deals backfire. 

Patience is really important, and one of the biggest challenges I see with up and coming artists. They don’t want to wait for five years without any payment or any results. But in the end, that’s the thing that’s necessary to come at that level of success. It can sometimes be even ten years until you can be professional and find success. 

Eddie: I think it depends on your niche. Sometimes an artist you’ve never heard of goes viral, and three months later, they’re touring the globe. 

Joey: There are so many elements to success that it’s difficult for you to know how long it takes. I mean, most of the people don’t have the opportunity to work as musicians full time and earn money with it. They have nine to five jobs and make music as a passion in the evenings and on the weekends. I think this is the right thing to do – the last thing you want is to have financial stress. Keep a side job to at least cover your monthly costs until you’re confident that your work is paying off. Financial stress is going to kill your creativity in the end, so you don’t want to get in a position where the money is going to put you in a bad situation. 

I can imagine that the music industry sounds like hell if you listen to stories like this. And it’s not. If you’re a talented person who loves to be an artist performing on stage, it’s the best job on the planet. But just be aware that there is so much more to the job and 60 minutes on stage. 

Eddie: If there was one book you would recommend, what would it be? 

The War of Art. It’s about creativity and all the blocks that you create for yourself.

Eddie: What about podcasts? 

Joey: When I first started this new project, I listened to a lot of Gary Vee, which is really like a marketing podcast. I also listen to Artificial intelligence by Lex Friedman and the Joe Rogan podcast. 

Eddie: How do you structure your day? Do you have any routines? 

No. And that’s the way I like it. My schedule is more weekly than daily. I work from Mondays to Thursdays, and Friday to Sunday is with my family. 

Eddie: I really need structure in my life, so I use the high-performance planner and plan everything daily. 

Someone in the comment section said: I’m 33 years now and have been working for almost ten years to reach success in the industry. Do you have any thoughts on that? 

Eddie: My initial thoughts are that they probably have to restructure. It seems like they’re very passionate, but perhaps they should try approaching their career from a different perspective. 

Joey: I wonder if they’ve reached nothing. You always reach something; it’s a matter of perspective. If you compare yourself to people who are making millions, that will only make you unhappy. Stop comparing yourself to other people. I would also say to get out of your comfort zone and start looking at things differently.

Eddie: Another question from the comments asks: How do I get a mentor when I don’t have money?

Podcasts and audiobooks are a great resource. The great thing is you can listen to people discuss topics like mental health and the music industry for long periods, and I’m sure some parts will resonate with your life. 

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity. Watch the full video here.

Joey: Let’s start with a brief introduction. For everyone who doesn’t know who you are, where did it all begin for you?

Benjamin: My name is Kid Massive. I’ve been a DJ for 25 years and a producer for 20 years. I’ve toured the world and released on many of the biggest independent labels, in addition to Sony, Warner, and Universal. Right now, I’m currently focused on helping new talent with my own two labels, Get Down Recordings and Get Down Black. I also run The Mindset Sessions, a podcast and teaching platform which helps young creatives understand their choices using my experiences and knowledge of cognitive-behavioral therapies, psychology, and spirituality. 

Joey: Why do you think it’s important for artists to have the right mindset and work on their mental health? 

Benjamin: For me, being creative is incredibly personal. It’s a journey of expression and how you feel. The more you know about yourself, the stronger your identity will become. We all start something because we love it, but then people start making decisions for us. So the more self-aware you can become, the more in line you can grow with your gigs, management, and all aspects of your career. 

Joey: What I think is interesting about the whole mindset game is that it can change your life once you’ve once you are in control. When I started my career, I started trusting other people and completely neglected my opinion, which caused me to end up in some sort of burnout. For example, mental health can be really important for your music releases. Many artists struggle with releasing their music due to insecurities or fear. If you can control your mind, your life can be much easier. I also think that having this control triggers your creativity. 

Benjamin: Absolutely, it’s about connecting to yourself and understanding what’s actually important. Do you get value in a booking or record deal? Be honest with yourself. You should be okay with the fact that you don’t release music for two months or three months or five months, because it’s a decision you’ve made. 

I’ve worked with a lot of the big labels, and in 2020, you have just an excellent opportunity of releasing a record as they do. If you have the right connections, if you have the right distribution network, you can publish a track yourself. I can control whenever I want to release it. There’s no deadline, and there’s no stress about having to put out a new record. 

Joey: It’s just crazy to see how many people in this industry don’t know these things. And it’s not like it’s that hard to know, right? Like, there’s a million books and podcasts written about it. You don’t have to go to a psychologist to understand these issues. 

Balance is key. Recently, I’ve mainly been focusing on balancing my life. For example, I like food, meat, I don’t smoke or do drugs, but I occasionally drink. But I know that working out is healthy, eating vegan is healthy, and drinking moderately is healthy. What I mean is that you can still enjoy life and take care of yourself at the same time. How do you think that translates to being an artist? 

Benjamin: It has to do with the balance of experience. You need to accept that you’re just like everyone else. Maybe you’re the king of the world during an hour-long DJ set, but when you’re done, you’re just like everyone else.  People have this massive crash because they believe that they’re someone they’re not. The numbers, the facts, and figures have proven that they’re successful, but success can be taken away quickly. And when things get taken away, artists struggle and change their identity. 

People start to think they should sound more like Hardwell or Don Diablo and change their sound just for a label. It might be a short term success. But when you take it to the long term, it can really redirect you from your own path. Your fans start to think, ‘Who is this guy?, are you a tech house, bass house, EDM producer? What are you?”

Joey: Knowing that you’ve been working on the mental side of things for the last couple of years, how would you advise someone who doesn’t know anything about what we’ve talked about?

Benjamin: Asking “why?” really helps. Like if you get that number one song, how does that make you feel? Why do you think that way? Why is it essential for me to act differently to become successful? There are lots of things that happen in our lives that we don’t pay attention to. 

Once you become self-aware, then you can think about how you can do things differently. When you challenge your brain, your brain increases, it grows, it’s like a muscle. The more you use it, the bigger it gets. This also helps with your productions.

I do a lot of work with Loopmasters, and in 2018, I was the number one selling producer on the platform. I made psytrance, trap, tropical house. jazzy hip hop. I did everything else other than what I usually do. And as a producer, that means my knowledge and creativity just expanded.

Many producers have a sample base and structure to make a track super quick, but the creativity is gone because it’s just a habit. You’ve evolved as a producer where you are at the level where you just can do it with your eyes closed, but there’s no goal anymore. There’s no challenge anymore. And that’s what I was missing as well. I stopped challenging myself in the studio eventually. And that’s boring.

People need to reignite the ‘fun’ in their productions. Think about what inspires you to make music. For many, it’s not the technical aspect, but it’s the creative part. For me, now I want to make Latin house, soul house, disco remixes. It still fits my style, but it’s something different, challenging, and fun. 

Joey: Thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and experience!

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity.

Let’s take a few steps back. Tell us a bit more about yourself and which company you currently work for. 

I’ve been working at Beatport for almost two years now at their Berlin office. I’ve had different roles at Beatport: I originally started in label management, then in marketing, and now I’m the partnerships manager. As the partnerships manager, I’m mainly dealing with outside relationships, working with brands, charity organizations, collectives focusing on diversity, and business development. Many of those partnerships encompass other departments, so I like having the freedom to work with the editorial team, the artist relations team, label management, and articles for Beatportal. 

How did you end up in the music industry, and eventually Beatport?

This is my 12th year in the industry now. Before Beatport, I lived in Los Angeles, where I worked for five years at WME, a talent agency, and focused on brand partnerships. This was also when electronic music was rising in the US around 2008-2009, and it was amazing to work in those teams and see that explode. We worked on Avicii’s Ralph Lauren deal and some other projects like Swedish House Mafia. After that, I got into artist management, but I missed being on the business side of things. I wanted to move away from LA and get creatively inspired again. I eventually moved to Berlin and got connected to Beatport. The rest is history!

Going back to your job at WME, why do big brands invest in artists?

Brands want to do something innovative and connect with their key audience in a more meaningful way. For example, 7UP knew that electronic music was booming, so they did a deal with Martin Garrix. They also knew that electronic music would be more attractive to their younger demographic, which consumes their drink. 

What could be the value for the artist – is it just money? 

For a lot of the artists, you get a massive paycheck for only a couple of days of production work. So you can make a good amount of money for two days of work, which would typically take five or six months. Sometimes brands pay for full tours, like Virgin Mobile and Lady Gaga. But also, it’s kind of cool if Nike or Red Bull wants to work with you. It means your fan base probably will grow, you’ll get a whole new audience; it’s also kind of flattering.

You mentioned living in LA, and later Berlin. One of the questions I get from artists is that they feel the need to move to places like LA or Berlin to get more involved in the industry. Is that valuable?

I think it’s smart to move somewhere where there’s a key scene from a business perspective. I’m not an artist, but I’ve worked with artists from different locations and would say it’s great to live in places like Berlin, Amsterdam, London, Los Angeles, New York, where it’s pumping in the veins of the city. In that way, you become part of a community, and  your network and ties become stronger. If you’re somewhere like Hawaii, you could definitely get your music heard, and I’m sure you can focus and stay productive, but then the networking side of things maybe get lost. If you’re producing, I think you can be anywhere in the world, but I think it’s also essential to live in a thriving place because you’re really plugged in. People end up building collectives, communities, labels – networking is a big part of your career. Human connections provide a lot more opportunities. 

What was the main thing you learned from your time at an artist agency and as a manager?

Artists are always overthinking their music, and they can be tough on themselves when the music is really good.

How did you deal with that?

I think it has to do with trust. A lot of artists overthink their music even though it’s already finished. As a manager, we can pitch the song to labels now, and the artist needs to trust us. 

It’s about having a relationship with the client and telling them that the music is good enough. 

What would you need as a manager to make an artist bigger?

I would say releases under your belt, and maybe a secret stash to show that there’s something to work with. The manager should know what you sound like and what you’re capable of. Having a pipeline of gigs or a booking agent also helps a manager because they have something to work with then.

You mentioned the importance of having releases under your belt. I often see that artists are ashamed of their previous releases, which leads them to delete their earlier tracks. I always tell them not to do that since it’s kind of like a resume. It tells something about where you came from and where you’re going. Do you agree?

Yeah, I think you should never be ashamed of where you came from. I think it’s fair to be proud of what you’ve made because it probably got you to where you are now. It helps you evolve as an artist. 

We met each other on the same panel in Munich about mental health. How do you think that mental health has affected the music industry in the last couple of years?

I think it’s amazing that people have talked more openly about the topic, and there’s less stigma. Unfortunately, people have had to pass away for this to happen, but there are some conversations you could have never had ten years ago, and now we can. Instead of a DJ being on the front of DJ Mag, the main topic is now about mental health. As a platform like Beatport, we must make this a global point to discuss. 

In addition to mental health, I think it’s also Beatport’s responsibility to educate people on other priorities like diversity and sustainability. With Beatportal, we can also highlight more of these topics; recently, we’ve been highlighting female and LGBTQ artists. It’s essential for us also to portray diversity and mental health in everything we do even on the store with things like feature charts, content, and editorials. 

Switching gears, how do you think that Beatport has been affected by the rise in streaming services? 

We recently introduced Beatport-Link, which is a subscription service and allows direct access to our entire catalog. For someone like me who’s wanting to learn how to DJ, it’s cool that I can get any track at my fingertips. We’ve also had some fantastic charity live streams recently with artists from around the world. Beatport is still thriving!

Thank you again for taking the time to tell us more about your work at Beatport and your experiences in the industry!

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity.

Joey: Let’s start from the beginning. How did it all begin for you?

Fabian: My mom and dad were jazz musicians, so I kind of had music in my blood. I didn’t start messing around with music until I was like 16 or 17. It just escalated from there. I started releasing music on Trap Nation and Elysian Records – basically, all the YouTube and SoundCloud labels because that was where trap music was back then. 

Joey: How did you get in contact with him? 

Fabian: I think I must have sent thousands of emails out to labels. I did the old spam thing. Eventually, it worked out. 

Joey: Do you put out much music, or are you specific with what you release?

Fabian: I used to be the quantity over quality guy. I was putting out more than one song every month for the first few years of my career. Now I’m way more nitpicky. I will probably release a song every few months now.

Joey: Yeah, it’s interesting because many producers will release a lot of music when they’re starting. Once the attention is there, they kind of start slowing down. Did you notice any difference when you started releasing your music on that bigger label?

Fabian: Of course, I did. It kickstarted my career. I didn’t earn much money doing it back then. The money was coming from DJ gigs. But basically, it helped spark my production career.

Joey: Did you notice any new gigs coming in after releasing on Trap Nation? 

Fabian: A little bit, but not that much. We don’t really have an EDM scene in Copenhagen. The only gigs that were coming in were a few shows in Germany and offers in Asia, Russia, and Eastern Europe, but it was very minimal. 

Joey: Is it better now? 

Fabian: Not really to be honest. It’s funny because my touring career never really took off. 30-40 shows a year was probably the most I’d ever played. My touring career never really went crazy. Right now, I’m good with not touring at all. I spend all the time in the studio, which I love, but eventually, I would like to start traveling. 

Joey: I think it’s good to think about it. I think most artists go into the touring mode directly without even thinking that they are probably a better music producer. It’s two different things, you know? 

Fabian: Exactly. I’m kind of okay with just being in the studio. 

Joey: I started digging online, and I think the way you market yourself on Instagram and Youtube is excellent. How do you manage to upload all those videos, and especially the vlogs? I know from experience that it takes a shitload of time. 

Fabian: To be honest, it was kind of a priority because I didn’t have a social life. I stayed in the studio, editing videos and making music for 10 to 12 hours every day except Sundays. In the future, I do want to do content regularly, but not that much. I admire people that can put out weekly content on YouTube. That takes a lot of work and much effort. I remember the vlogs would take me anywhere from 10 to 20 hours of work to edit. 

Joey: Where did you learn how to edit your videos? 

Fabian: YouTube University, man, haha. I learned everything on Youtube. Music production, video production, vocal recording… everything!

That’s my thing about music school. If you didn’t go to music school, and you would just produce for a year, I bet you would have learned more than just playing with your daw. Music theory is important. I mean, it can teach you a lot of things. It’s just a whole different way of working.

Joey: Let’s dive into the whole sample thing. How did you end up there? 

Fabian: I did sample packs for this Australian company called Zenheiser (not the headphone company). And then, when Splice launched, they heard the sample pack, and they approached me and asked if I wanted to do like a signature Fabian Mazur sounds sample pack. Bear in mind this was like the early days of Splice, so there weren’t many trap EDM sounding packs back then. A few months later, my manager told me they want me to start my own label on Splice. Two years later, I think I’ve done 18 or 19 sample packs by now. I would say it’s almost a full-time job just making samples.

Joey: How does that work? 

Fabian: There are multiple different ways of doing it. Sometimes I layer stuff until you can’t even notice the original sample. So I would layer say, seven snares – the low end from one, mid-range from another, and make new snare out of it. Some packs are different. I had the concept of doing a jungle sample pack, so I looked at the cheapest flights from Copenhagen to a big jungle. I went to Thailand and recorded all the local people, the forest, the birds, everything. 

Joey: On average, how much time would it take you to create a pack like that? 

Fabian: Usually, my sample packs take me about one to two months – and that’s like four to six hours a day.

Joey: Don’t you go crazy?

Fabian: I just did a sample pack called wubs, which is coming out in a couple of months. It’s basically only bass sound design. No drums, no nothing. I was going crazy, just like making serum presets and tweaking wobbles for many hours every day. That was pretty sickening. 

Joey: How do you get paid for that? Like, how does that work? 

Fabian: I can talk about it a little bit. I get a percentage fee of the samples used from Splice credits. Basically, I sell many thousand samples a month that amounts up to a certain amount of dollars, which I get paid out every month. 

Joey: I can imagine that that gives you a different way of income as well, aside from your gigs and your music.

Fabian: Very much. If it weren’t for the Splice thing, I wouldn’t be able to make a living making music. I’m super grateful that I have that. 

Joey: Yeah, I think that’s funny. So many starting artists don’t see how hard it is to make a living from music. From the outside, it might look perfect and easy, but from the inside, you have to make quite some money to actually make a living from it. 

Fabian: Many people write to me like, “Hey, dude, I’ve been making music for eight months in fruity loops. How do I make money from my music?” You’re not just going to be able to make a living off your music from day one. It’s a prolonged process. And I think many people don’t realize a lot of us have been struggling for like five to 10 years until we made an income that we could make a living from.

Joey: True. I still remember the first time I had this ten day tour in America, and I made like zero money. I think it’s a great thing that right now we’re in an age where it’s straightforward to make an extra buck on music; for example, the samples, streaming, or YouTube. It’s just something extra. 

Fabian: Exactly. And that’s one of the main points that I want to stress. When people ask me how to make a living within the music industry, you need to have different revenue incomes. You need to have money coming from different places. I have shows, royalties, Splice samples, and Youtube. I would encourage everyone to look at their career objectively and try to analyze where they can make money from. To be honest, not a lot of producers or music artists make all their income from like one specific stream.

Joey: What’s in it for Fabian Mazur in the future?

Fabian: So that’s a big question for me right now because I’m so I used to be in the trap/EDM space. Right now, I’m trying to bridge slowly into a more electronic urban type of space. I think that’s the space I want to be in eventually. But it’s a slow build. You can’t just release an EDM song one day, and then the next day you publish like a guitar vocal type song. I’m trying to go into a more organic sounding space and away from all the trap EDM stuff. 

Joey: Sounds cool! Thanks for taking the time to do this, man. I appreciate you sharing your story!

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity. You can listen to the full interview with Jay Hardway here!

Joey: Welcome, Jay! How are you?

Jay: I’m good!

Joey: There probably aren’t many people who don’t know you yet, but can you tell us a bit more about how you started? You already mentioned that you started DJing at house parties, weddings, and those kinds of things.

Jay: I started making music when I was 14. At the time, it was just a hobby and something I already loved. I was already into the local DJ’s and would always ask about their equipment. Then a friend of mine introduced me to his DJ set, and I would practice with him. He used to DJ at a hockey club. I then started doing parties for friends, weddings, and then bars. I was kind of stably doing that but wasn’t going that much anywhere until I got my first hit six years ago.

Joey: When did you realize that this might be a career?

Jay: I was 14 or 15 when I found out about Fruity Loops and was already learning how to make melodies. Then, around 18 or 19 was when I thought I had some talent.

Joey: What was the reaction from your family or friends when you started doing that?

Jay: They were very annoyed because I would show them the music I thought I was very good, but there’s this thing when you start making music or anything creative, you think you’re excellent, and you believe everything you make sounds good because you made it and it’s new. But then you reach this point where it’s like, ‘oh’ I’m not good at all. I think it’s called ‘Mount Stupid’ or something: you go down all the way and slowly build your quality and become better. I think the moment for me was when I bought my first studio monitors. The melodies were already there, but the sound and the other things were horrible. I then realized that I had talent, but a lot more work to do.

Joey: You mentioned that you’d spent a lot of time in the studio. How did you develop your skills? Did you go to school?

Jay: No, I watched a lot of youtube tutorials and found out by myself. I was mostly having fun and making stuff that I wanted to make. I would hear a track by Chuckie and try to recreate it, but it wouldn’t sound anything like it. Every time you do a new project, you learn a new skill, find a unique sound, or find a way to make your kicks sound better. With hundreds of projects, after awhile, you just become better and better. And there’s this point where you start to hear if your track is good enough.

Joey: That’s interesting. How do you hear that? Can you explain it?

Jay: It’s tough. I feel like I don’t always have this because sometimes I think something sounds good while everyone else hates it. So there will always be a taste thing. It’s also nice as a DJ to test your track out and see the reaction in the club. It’s purely experience when it comes to knowing a good melody or baseline, but you need to test it out as well.

Joey: It’s a bizarre thing because I talk to a lot of artists like music producers and DJ’s, and that question keeps popping up, like how do you know when your track is finished?

Jay: Oh, it’s never finished, I think.

Joey: But how do you decide the moment when it’s all done?

Jay: I think you’ve got to talk to a label or your manager and decide, ‘this is it.’

Joey: So you use other people to make decisions as well?

Jay: Kind of. As a producer, your track is never finished. You always have some stuff you might still want to do. For example, polishing high hats, adding FX, etc. There’s always going to be things that you want to change. For the sake of your release schedule, you sometimes need to say, “okay, the baby is leaving the nest now” haha.

Joey: So how did you do that before you had a label or manager? Which people did you reach out to?

Jay: Forums. I would post on the Laidback Luke forum. He was giving feedback himself, which was helpful because technically there were some tips, but he was also mostly giving us opinions. It used to be a hotspot of people, like a little community. Also, the Vato Gonzalez forum was really good. We would meet up at Dancefair with people from the Vato forum, and it was a cool and small community. I don’t know if there is a community like that now. It seems more individual.

Joey: There’s definitely a few more pages — especially Facebook groups. I have one myself where 1000 producers are talking to each other and giving feedback. I think it’s moved from having a forum on your website to social media.

Jay: You have to accept the fact that it will never be finished. I remember I sent my track, Electric Elephants, to Martin Garrix, and he was like, “I don’t like the drop.” It really impacted me, and I tried to change it and come up with new stuff but decided to keep it that way. It turned out great, and it became a big success. So, you can’t please everyone; there’s always going to be people who don’t like some stuff in your track.

Joey: That’s the thing about music. It’s art. I can have a look at the Mona Lisa and say, “I don’t like it,” but somehow it’s still worth millions of dollars. There’s a significant personal opinion involved in the whole matter. That’s always really interesting because when you ask for feedback, you get their personal opinion and not feedback.

Jay: That’s important, but I also think with feedback, you know you get good feedback when you hate what the person is saying because you knew they were right. I noticed this even with the A&R at Spinnin. I would send a track, and he would come back to me like, “yeah I like it, but….” and then everything he says you know is right, but you hate it because you don’t want to admit it sometimes to yourself. It’s essential to have really honest people.

There are definitely artists that do everything the way they want to and have success, but I don’t know if you can do that in the DJ or EDM scene; you want tracks that always please crowds.

Joey: It’s a balance in that you also have to please a crowd, but at the same time, you want to represent yourself as an artist. It’s a compromise.

Jay: It’s like a gray area since it’s artistic so you shouldn’t make it more commercial, but at the same time, it’s a business.

Sometimes you’ve got to say, “I’m going to do this track this way.” You’ve also got to remember that you’re always expressing yourself, and even if there’s one lifelong fan because of that track, it’s a win. If the rest don’t like it, you’re going to have a new record the month after.

Joey: What are your thoughts on the releasing amount? Did you mention once a month? It’s kind of changed in the last couple of years.

Jay: Yeah, it’s crazy stressful. You put yourself under pressure; your fans put you under pressure. Whenever you release a track, people are asking, “when is there new music?” I mean, you can choose not to do that. You can decide to release two tracks a year, but I think you’re going to have a difficult time getting bookings.

Joey: That’s the thing. Promoters need ammunition to sell tickets. You feel pressure from fans, from promoters — maybe your manager is also starting to push you because they need to sell you as well. And you’re pushing yourself because you want to release music as a creative artist. That’s always going to be difficult and a struggle to get the next big thing.

Jay: The fun thing about making music is that you never know what’s going to be the next big thing.

Joey: In your opinion what’s your most famous track?

Jay: ‘Wizard’ with Martin Garrix is my biggest hit. I expected it because Martin was already big. Martin released Animals, and right after was Wizard. But personally, I think Electric Elephants has been the one where the industry saw, ‘oh this guy is legit; he can produce as well.’ That’s a more significant achievement for me because that put me on the map.

Joey: Did you expect the track to become that big?

Jay: No, not at all.

That’s the fun thing. You’re just sitting in the studio making something that you like. You find a label for it, it gets released, and you have no idea what’s going to happen. I think that’s the great thing about music these days, especially with the internet, you never know where it ends up. Sometimes it ends up in the Indonesian charts, and you’re like how did it end up there?

Yeah, it’s crazy how it works. I remember sending it around to some DJ’s, and they were like, “It’s awesome,” and the label sent it around, and it got so much good feedback. That’s what happens a lot. And when they start playing it in Ultra and Tomorrowland, that’s different, and you know it’s getting some different traction.

Joey: Do you have an idea about what makes that track special?

Jay: It’s accessible. The first time you hear it, it’s already easy to listen to. It’s an easy melody but also has a different sound. It’s different and easily accessible.

Joey: You mentioned the collaboration with Martin Garrix. Can you talk a bit more about how that happened?

Jay: Yeah, we go way back. We were friends before we both got big gigs. He was producing when he was 14 years old, and I met him on the Vato forum. We worked together for the next few years and became friends. Once everything blew up, he got signed to Spinnin Records and Animals came. No one expected the success of Animals. And then Wizard came. So literally the summer of Animals, right before, I was still delivering barbecues. Half a year later, I’m touring across the world.

Joey: So that track put you on the map internationally and got you the gigs and financial arbitrage.

Jay: Yeah, like in a really fast time. It felt like it was overnight from DJing in a small bar in my hometown to DJing in Vegas.

Joey: In the beginning, when those international gigs came in, were you booked together with Martin Garrix, or under your own name?

Jay: Well, I’ve been signed to Ace Agency, and they were really smart with their tactics. I got signed right around the time of the track.

Joey: So Wizard also put you on the map in the industry.

Jay: Right, and Martin was speaking very highly of me. He made sure that Ace Agency signed and made sure that Spinnin signed me. He was really pushing me forward. It was really cool to see a friend do that.

But then, the way Ace Agency did it was genius because they said, “Hey, you booked Martin Garrix, do you also want to book Jay Hardway?” So I had my own fee and my own name, and of course, I was presented when Martin Garrix was booked, but as a separate artist. Not like a package deal, because the thing is, when you do a package deal, you don’t know what price you’re worth. And now we knew in that market, Jay Hardway is worth X fee. We could really build that market.

Joey: Wow, I didn’t know that was the start of it. I thought you had a whole career before that.

Jay: Well, a career in barbeques! I was making a lot of music, and not releasing it yet. I was already signed to Universal publishing, but Wizard was really my launch. Then it was the pressure for me to continue.

Joey: How did you comprehend with that pressure?

Jay: It was a lot of insecurity in the beginning because I knew I could make music, but I didn’t know how to convince anyone else that I could make music as well because they thought I only released hits with Garrix. So it took me a couple of months. I think Wizard was released on October 2013, and it took me till March to release Bootcamp. That was my first solo single, but it did really well, so it brought me some hype again.

Joey: I can imagine that’s a tough place to be in. It’s great that you have such a kickstart to your career, but at the same time, the audience might think you’re ‘Robin’ to ‘Batman,’ and now you feel the stress of proving the fact that you’re not Robin — you’re Superman.

Jay: I tried to let go of that idea. I was also a bit older than Martin — Martin was like 16, and I was like 22 ish. So I already had more life experience that I would be less impressed by that idea. I was just going to do my thing, and if people booked me because of Garrix, then amazing, and if they started to see that I make my own music, that’s awesome. But I never really tried to overthink. The pressure there was mostly coming from myself.

Joey: I think that’s your power. We’ve never spoken before and what I can tell about your stories is that you are consciously aware of the things that are happening in your life and your career. I think that’s a big power.

Jay: Yeah, I think it’s really important. We see a lot of artists that are puppets, and they don’t really care. I never did that. It’s also crucial to be conscious of your health.

Joey: Is that still something that you think about when you’re touring. Do you do a lot of long tours — so two-week tours?

Jay: No, not that much. I prefer one, maybe two weekends, and then that’s it. Two weeks is a long time for me to be away from home. The US isn’t that big of a market for me, so it’s mostly one weekend. In China, sometimes I do two weeks because there are two weekends connected, but mostly it’s been just a separate weekend with two shows. In the summer you might have some shows in the middle of the week.

Joey: What’s the biggest market for you right now? Asia?

Jay: Asia is big, but it’s tough to tell these days.

Joey: Is Europe still a thing?

Jay: Yes. On the one hand, promoters are saying EDM is dead, and yeah, it’s hard to book EDM acts. On the other hand, you can do shows, and people are going crazy on the commercial stuff. You start to question if EDM is really dead. I was at a street parade in Zurich, and this guy starts with Techno, and then another DJ starts playing commercial stuff. Right away, people began going way crazier. So people say they don’t like EDM, but they do otherwise. They still love commercial stuff.

Joey: Yeah, like saying that you’re underground is more “interesting” but a lot of people are commercial. It’s the decision that you make as an artist. What are you going to follow? Do you want to please the crowd? Promoter? What’s the balance in that whole story.

Jay: Well, pleasing the promoter is selling tickets. If you sell your tickets, the promoter is probably happy. That’s basically the way it is. I’ve had a bunch of times where they loved my set, and we had a good time and dinner, but in the end, they are way more into the money.

Joey: But let’s say that you organized an event. You book your favorite artist for probably a crazy amount of money. You schedule the artist, it’s not a private party, it’s a commercial party, and ten people end up there. You get 100 euros in revenue, and that’s it. I would go crazy — who wouldn’t?

Jay: Yeah, that’s what you’ve always got to realize as a DJ. You don’t have to be a commercial guy, but you have to accept that if you’re not adding commercial touches to your set, you might end up doing fewer shows or selling less tickets. That’s also okay — but if you want a big mainstage, you’ve got to start by selling tickets.

Everybodys always like, Timmy Trumpet came out of nowhere and now he’s big. But I remember I was headlining a show and he was the second headliner. But he had this merch and his blow-up trumpets — he’s been building ever since and working really hard. Now he’s doing the mainstage. People don’t see what’s behind the scenes.

Joey: You mentioned that you spent a lot of hours in the studio, and there’s this saying that after 10,000 hours you’re a pro. People also forget that people went through the whole thing — they went through the same period.

Jay: I get demos from people that say “hey, it’s not mastered yet” and then I always think like ‘okay, there’s one of these again.’

Joey: So what’s your thought at that moment?

Jay: Well, it’s like saying “It’s not good enough, but I’m still going to send it to you anyways.” Why don’t you finish? If it’s not mastered, that’s basically an excuse that it doesn’t sound good.

What’s also frustrating about being a creative artist is that you put in hours and hours, but then it’s like no one wants it, and you can’t do anything with it. You could send it to your mom, and she would like it, but that’s so many hours wasted. That’s something that you’ve got to live with.

Joey: Well, I think that’s changed. We come from a time where that actually happened. If you couldn’t sign on a label, you were fucked. But right now, everyone can post on Tunecore or Distrokid, and for 10 dollars they put your music on Spotify or iTunes. Right now, if a label doesn’t want it, you can still say fuck it, let me do it myself. Let’s contact some playlist owners and see if I can promote it or send to a couple of DJ’s. That’s when you come back to the art aspect of it — there’s always people who do or don’t like it. I think there’s a big advantage right now for aspiring artists. They’re not relying on third parties anymore. The label or manager isn’t in charge anymore; you are in charge. It just comes down to how much work you spend to promote yourself.

Jay: It’s a hard job, so that’s why you’re paying half of the track royalties to labels in the first place.

Joey: Labels can still be super handy, but only when you sign with a label with that reach like Spinnin or Revealed — those are all labels who have the attention of their fanbase. You also need a label that’s consistent with the quality.

Jay: I think it’s always dangerous for yourself and your own brand if you’re posting anything online. I always had the feeling that if my track wasn’t good enough for my label, maybe it’s not good enough for my market. So I would come back with a record where more people from labels said, yes, ‘it’s good enough.’ It’s kind of like quality control. But then again it’s a balance.

Joey: It’s a critical question. Similar to a promoter, the label is in the money business. So if they listen to a track that’s AKA “underground,” that’s hardly sellable. But at the same time, it might also mean that it’s different and that it could be the next ‘Animals.’ It might break the normal. Releasing safe means that you can expect the outcomes, but releasing tracks that break the normal might get you more success. As an artist, you always have to ask if a label declines it, is it a bad track or do they not see any money right now?

Jay: That’s very difficult; it will always be hard like that. But it’s also cool since you never know how a track is going to do in the end.

Joey: Would you agree with the statement that you’re as good as your last release?

Jay: I would say maybe you’re as good as your worst release. Then again, what’s a good release? Is it a million plays or a track that people really rethink how the track hits them emotionally, but it only has 50,000 streams. Which one is better? I think it’s a tough time as well when it comes to hits.

Joey: I heard a thing a few weeks ago, which was kind of mindblowing. Someone said, “Don’t you think that with artists, people only remember the hits.” Like, let’s say you’re releasing 10–15 tracks a year. What if you release the next Animals, which brought you through a global #1 status. Do you think people would care about those other releases?

Jay: Yeah, no. That’s an excellent point.

Right now, even the shittiest tracks on earth get released. So it’s more accessible to old lookup tracks. For example, my first remix was horrible. But you can still find it online. Is it a bad thing? Or does that thing still put things in perspective? Like people can see how you’ve improved.

Yeah, there are still some tracks which are on SoundCloud and don’t sound that good. But now people can see how far I’ve come.

Joey: I think the fact that you have a track record of releases gives people an insight into how much work you’ve put into this project. It’s not like you’ve released one track and your career is made. It’s your resume.

Jay: But still, if I were to score a #1 hit, people could say I came out of nowhere. And that’s not true.

Joey: Yeah, I think that insight should push aside some stress because it doesn’t really matter. The only thing that matters is if you like the track. If it isn’t successful, too bad, and move onto the next one. But each release will bring you some form of success; it could be one person who is impacted by that track, or a million streams.

Jay: Yeah, I think that creating music is always stressful. Especially when you’re in the studio and not having inspiration can be frustrating. I think every creative person has this moment that you go through after every project that you finish.

Joey: That whole thing is a mind game. In a creative block, you’re your worst enemy. It’s not that people are saying that those eight measures you produce are not good. What if 2 million people on the planet think otherwise? It’s a constant fight with yourself.

Jay: It’s something that you also have to deal with. Part of being an artist is putting yourself out there and being vulnerable. If people comment on your track, it sometimes feels like a personal attack. You always need to get your mind straight.

Joey: Is that something you’ve learned to deal with?

Jay: I’ve definitely learned to control that. As you get older, you encounter more bad things about the industry or bad experiences on tour. It’s important to realize what’s going on. I do believe you definitely need some guidance from people around you. But you need to have some people who are grounded and are telling you, “hey, it’s normal for you to go through this.” After a couple of stressful periods, you learn that it’s going to be a part of life.

Joey: Looking back at your career, what would you have done differently?

Jay: I don’t think I would have done anything differently because I feel like everything happened in such a way that took me to where I am. Of course, I had some conflict with managers and labels, and I would do things differently, but I still feel like that would have had to happen for me to understand. Sometimes you have to make mistakes to really know why you do it. Like you said before, you can’t learn anything from a book because you have to experience it yourself.

Joey: Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to come over here and share your knowledge!

Jay: Thanks for having me!

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity. You can listen to the full interview with Alvaro!

Joey: Hey Jasper, how are you doing?

Alvaro: Hey Joey, I’m good!

Joey: Where is your studio located? In your home?

Alvaro: No, this is in a wooden factory. Outside they’re cutting wood and stuff. Now and then, I hate them. But my volume goes louder. So you beat them.

Joey: To give the audience some context about who you are, who is Alvaro?

Alvaro: Well, I used to be a DJ, and I’m still a producer. I think most people know me by my big room sound. The first big room song I did was ‘Make the Crowd Go.’ I think the second biggest one was ‘Welcome to the Jungle’ which was released on Revealed with Hardwell. Basically, all my songs were big room.

Joey: You already mentioned that you were a DJ, and something changed. When did you quit? Are you entirely done?

Alvaro: Well, I haven’t played in like two years maybe.

Joey: And that was a conscious decision to stop playing?

Alvaro: Well, not right away. You have to go back to the beginning when I started DJing and was traveling the world. At some point, the whole big room scene was so repetitive, and there were a lot of people joining in, which kind of saturated the entire thing.

Joey: Are we talking about 2012,13?

Alvaro: Yeah, I think it was later when EDM went down. 2015 maybe. A lot of people stopped. But at that moment, it was a whole combination of things. I was playing for five years already and didn’t really enjoy it. I also wanted to do something else.

So at the point of Spotify coming up, I started producing pop music and stopped to DJ. Because for me, it didn’t really make sense to DJ anymore. I had some friends telling me like, yeah, you should do some shows, so people know you’re still here. And I was like, “Yeah, but what’s the point?” If I’m going to play there, while not releasing any music, my career is going to end anyway. Let me just start producing right away and not waste any time on doing shows that don’t matter. I also had money from all the years I was playing — a buffer where I could spend some time off. So actually, I told my manager not to accept any more bookings.

Joey: So it just always stayed like that.

Alvaro: Yeah, I kind of went through this whole new direction. It felt like starting all over again, which was pretty cool.

Joey: What made you feel that way?

Alvaro: First of all, it’s a whole new genre. You have to do pop music or commercial music, which is totally different than EDM. EDM is a bit more straightforward. I remember starting with a friend of mine and producing ten commercial songs. Even then, I felt like we were not good enough yet. If you make the switch to pop songs, you’re going to compete with Katy Perry and Rihanna’s music. The production quality needs to be over the top. It needs to be perfect.

Joey: Did you think at that moment, that your production quality was at a high level?

Alvaro: No, because it’s also a producer problem, right. You never think it’s good enough.

Joey: So even with having multiple successful releases, a collaboration with Hardwell, already touring the world?

Alvaro: Yeah, but that was different. I felt like I was on different grounds, a whole different field. So that was the reason why I didn’t figure it was good straight away. It’s the same as starting producing again. You have to take a couple of years to be at least good at it.

Joey: At the end of your EDM career, were you happy with the result of your tracks? Or still insecure about how it sounded?

Alvaro: That’s a good question. Actually, I thought EDM tracks were terrible. Even my own songs, really. I still like them and understand why they work. I think they’re cool, but I didn’t like the pressure of people expected me to do the same thing. So I started making other stuff. And at that point, it seemed like every different artist was coming out with a big room song. I was getting depressed by everything I heard. I realized it wasn’t going to work.

Joey: So you went over to pop music?

Alvaro: Yeah, and that was a whole new challenge since it involved different techniques and arrangements.

Yeah, everything from songwriting to the arrangement and the use of chords and topline melodies. It’s a whole new life. For example, you can have a really huge big room song with the right drop, but if the break is kind of weird, it doesn’t really matter. The drop is what people are waiting for. With a pop song, every little thing needs to be perfect. From the hi-hats to the snares, kick drum, and overall feel of the song. Everything needs to be perfect.

Joey: So that’s a huge difference. What did you struggle with the most in the beginning?

Alvaro: I guess the production quality. I made some good pop songs, but I could hear the difference between other pop songs, and that’s just in production quality. That’s what I said before, like, if you do trap right now, and you never made it, I can hear that you’re another trap producer. You have the same kick and snare, but it doesn’t have the feel of it. That’s how you hear the difference between guys that have made trap for ten years already. So I knew that everyone could play a four-chord melody, the most basic pop chords ever, but that’s not going to make it a good song. At that point, I knew that production quality was the reason why some songs didn’t sound right to me. So the first step was to bring up the quality. I wanted to make pop music, but I didn’t want to sound like a generic pop song. My ultimate goal was to make it a little bit special, make it weird, make it different. And that’s kind of how we started and working towards where we are right now.

Joey: What were you doing specifically to improve the quality of your music?

Alvaro: I feel like pop music is all about small details. It’s the same when you listen back to old songs, you can hear a lot of stuff missing. Like oh, it sounds so empty, it’s only a kick drum and a snare. And that’s actually the same thing that happened to me; we started making those songs, but they were super empty; they had no body. So eventually, I figured out that we have to add a lot of detail to it, like ambient stuff and extra melodies.

Joey: Was that more a process of trial and error, or was that learning from YouTube tutorials?

Alvaro: Well, mostly listening to other songs, I guess. I think there’s basically no tutorial that tells you how to make pop songs.

Joey: But you already knew how to make music.

Alvaro: Yeah, I remember when we started three years ago, we found this vocal chop. Everybody at that time was doing vocal chops, for example, Kygo. And then I remember hearing the song from Lauv. And it sounded to me like a violin in or something, but it was actually his vocal. That really triggered me. Like, this is something new, right? We have to start doing this instead of doing the basic vocal chops that everybody does. So in some way, I was really getting inspired by all the songs that were coming up. So we started basically doing the vocal chops but more organic. Organic sounds became really important. I didn’t want to sound like the standard Nexus sounds. We also started to make new sounds sound like they’re old. Like lowering the quality and adding some flutter like a wobble in between them to make them sound like an 80’s synth.

Joey: What kind of plugins did you use to do that?

Alvaro: Well, it’s funny how you discover plugins. And then a year later, you see everyone using it. At that time, it was manipulator.

Joey: I’ve heard of it. But which one is it?

Alvaro: It’s from those Infected Mushroom guys. Basically, it’s just a pitcher with formant knobs. We started using it on vocal chops. I would sing a melody in a microphone and then format it up and Melodyne it. Basically, I began to do more sound design. I think nowadays if you listen to pop songs, it’s a lot of sound design.

Joey: I agree that the combination of organic and digitally created music is really big right now.

Alvaro: That’s the funny thing about music in general, but also pop music. It’s always evolving. I remember the first song I heard from Afrojack, which was Pon De Floor, it was the same vocal chop but stretched. And then Skrillex started doing that. The difference was someone was singing the melody. Instead of programming the melody, someone started singing the melody. That makes it so much more organic because I feel like a voice is the best instrument because it’s never perfect. It makes it sound so natural for people to listen.

Joey: The most important thing is staying ahead of everyone.

Alvaro: We had this super poppy song with Kalimbas in it. Nowadays you would be tired if you heard another track with a Kalimba. We were the first doing that, even before Ed Sheeren did it with ‘Shape of You.’ And I think the beat was like Afro beats. It never released. That’s the funny thing. There was a vocalist on it that was from another song. I pitched the speed up because the new commercial project had a higher BPM, and somehow, he sounded like Post Malone. So I thought, let’s send it to Diplo. See what he thinks, right? So we sent him the song, and he was like, “this is dope!” I might get Post Malone on this one. And we were like, okay, well, I guess the music is good enough right now.

Joey: That’s interesting to me as well. How did you decide, okay, now my music is good enough? Did you need confirmation from someone else?

Alvaro: No, I think it was eventually my manager making that decision or me. I knew Diplo before, I knew what he liked, and I think I’m good at knowing how somebody else thinks or what they want. So at that point, we were just like, fuck it. Let’s just send it, you know? So yeah, we just made that decision randomly. Eventually, it was a good decision. It’s always hard. There’s not really a perfect time to say now it’s good.

Joey: And how do you decide that for yourself?

Alvaro: I mean, when there’s nothing else more to add to it. Or if sometimes it doesn’t even matter if the whole concept is good. In pop songs, I feel like it’s about the concept in general.

Joey: I see that happening with a lot of artists as well, like, defining the moment when you say, okay, it’s done. It’s finished.

Alvaro: Back in the days, I sent all my songs to Hardwell, Tiesto, even DJ Snake. They were not even finished, but he played them live. For example, DJ Snake did a lot. And I believe Tiesto also did it. But it also happened a couple of times where Hardwell or Snake just never reply to me. I feel like that’s the point where you get insecure. Where you’re like this guy played all my other songs, but now I’m sending him new stuff, and he’s not answering. It’s probably trash. And I think that’s also really hard. Like, even Snake last week sent me a direct message, “yo send me some new shit.” And I was like, yeah, but I don’t really make club music anymore. But then I did a song, sent it to him, and he didn’t reply. So, what does that explain? Is he too busy? Does he like it?

Joey: I think the problem is that it could be 1000 reasons. And because it’s tough to live without an explanation, your mind starts to make assumptions. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck-ups; if you begin to feel the thoughts of someone else, you’re done.

Alvaro: Yeah, exactly. And I feel like nowadays the more knowledge you have, and the more experience you have, also, the more doubt you have. You’re already thinking in your mind about Spotify, YouTube, or whether Spinnin wants a song.

Joey: So you started to focus fully on the production side, and you’re still making money right now right?

Alvaro: Yeah, I signed a publishing deal.

Joey: So it’s still possible to make a living from just making music? Let’s establish that right now.

Alvaro: I feel like you need a perfect combination of branding along with releasing songs. Like, look at Marshmallow, for example.He basically has everything; he’s like a gimmick with the helmet, he has pop songs, and he’s doing live shows. That’s the whole circle of money. That’s the only problem when you’re a producer: you don’t do any shows. So I feel like if you’re producing music, you have to make a lot of music to make money eventually.

Joey: And now you sell those beats or how does that work?

Alvaro: Yeah, we put them on Ebay haha. No, actually, it started like when I told you about that song with Post Malone that didn’t make it at all. That kind of got me in with Diplo. And from thereon, I got an invite to the Cayman Islands to go on a writing camp. I was like, oh shit, these are the biggest songwriters in the game. That’s kind of like how we got into it. So we did one writing game, then we did another.

Joey: How did you get your foot between the door? You already knew Diplo from, like, months or years before. How did you get in contact with him? What was it through your music?

Alvaro: Just emails. Yeah. Social media. And then I did this song for the PartySquad which eventually ended up being a Major Lazer song called Original Don. I guess that’s the first moment when I met Diplo. I guess he always knew me. It’s always been weird. Like, even DJ Snake direct messages me. I feel like, in the whole scene, everybody knows each other. It’s a small world. People are always checking in on each other. A lot of people don’t even know I’m doing this.

Joey: To me, it’s a complete surprise as well. I’m not even sure how I ended up on your Instagram page. And I was like, what’s this guy doing? So I was really curious to hear your story. It’s still fascinating to see how things can turn up.

Alvaro: Yeah, it’s kind of weird. For example, I worked on the Ellie Goulding song with Diplo and Swae Lee, which has almost 400 million streams right now. And I was wondering, should I post something? What are people going to think?

Joey: Is that legally possible for you to do?

Alvaro: Yeah, of course. I’m official. I’m in the credits. But yeah, the other question is, is it right to do it? Is it morally correct? Because you’re working on a track for somebody else. It’s like a combination of a bunch of people.

Joey: Even the most prominent artists have writers and stuff. Even Beyonce has like 13 writers.

Alvaro: And nobody cares about it. No one asks. In this time, it’s really hard to make the best song on your own. You need to work together with others.

That’s where you get the perfect song because the bar is set really high right now with pop songs.

Joey: And I think you keep challenging each other as well.

Alvaro: Yeah, that’s why I love working with my friend Bas [Will Grands] on those songs. Because with the two of us, it’s just so much easier to make a good song than just all alone.

Joey: And it’s just so different. Like being in the studio on your own is, to me it is less fun. I think I think the results are even better when you’re with more people. But isn’t that an agreement nightmare if so many people work on the track?

Alvaro: Yeah, it is. That’s also a difference. I mean, it will never change. Like, even for Spinnin Records, if a track gets 20 million Youtube views, you get zero money from the video.

Joey: Zero. How?

Alvaro: I don’t know if they do the same, but I remember back in the days it was in the contract where you earn nothing on the YouTube views. Maybe that’s changed. You cannot run away with money like that. There’s a lot of labels that put a lot of pressure on you.

It’s a process. That’s the same with everything; you need to invest in the beginning. For example, Max Martin is like one of the pop gods, and he has so much control, but he never started like that. He made his way up. I feel like that’s the same in pop music. To get your name out there, you have to make number one hit songs, and then people will start to recognize you. You can then do different negotiations in contracts, or whatever.

Joey: What’s the most important thing you’ve learned in the last two years?

Alvaro: Well, I think for me, the most important thing is just to do whatever you like and what makes you happy. That’s eventually the most important thing. I remember the stuff I did before, and it didn’t make me happy. I feel like what I’m doing right now makes me a different person. And it’s not easy. Like, even when I was in that whole EDM thing, I knew I wanted to do something different. But you don’t know how right? That’s the problem. Everybody wants to do something different, but have no idea where to start. What’s important is finding your way.

Joey: How did you get to find your way? You mentioned how you also didn’t know how to do it. So how did you do it afterward?

Alvaro: I think I just somehow ended up doing something I liked to do. My main problems were traveling; I didn’t like traveling. So not doing that makes me a little bit happier now. I also work in different genres now. I was always getting angry about doing the same thing. I would load up this 128 BPM project, and it’s the worst thing because I was getting limited by everything. Now I start a song totally different. I just play whatever, I think is cool like doing some weird drums at maybe 100 BPM. That’s the perfect thing about it: I can do whatever I want. I also get bored pretty easily. So it’s also a little bit personal. I don’t like to stick with something for the same period.

Joey: I have the exact same thing!

Alvaro: Like, I’m bored pretty quick and need to challenge myself every time. And even I still think of DJing again when I’m at home. Every fucking weekend I’m at home I want to travel again and start thinking about how much fun it was to travel. But I think that’s a big pitfall because you start to think about the fun things, but you also have to think about the worst things.

You learn from all the mistakes, right? For example, now, I would tell my manager not to accept every booking, only the bookings I want to do, and I feel like I could enjoy them. I think there’s a big difference, and you can still do it. It’s just so hard to do something 50%; I feel like you have to put 100% in something to really get the best out of it.

Joey: I want to thank you for taking the time to share your story because I think it will help a lot of artists clear their thoughts and maybe hear other options in the industry. I really admire the choices that you’ve made for yourself and to follow your dreams.

Alvaro: Thank you for having me!

This interview has been paraphrased for consistency and clarity. You can watch/listen to the full interview with Rida.

Joey: What’s up guys? Today I’m having a chat with Rida Naser from Sirius XM!

Rida: Thank you for having me!

Joey: It’s actually funny how this happened. To give the listeners some context around the whole story, we’ve actually never met before. I had never heard of your name until one of my clients reached out to me and said, hey, I’m getting these messages from Rida, and she says she’s playing my remix and people are requesting it on Sirius XM.

Rida: Yeah, it’s crazy.

Joey: Yeah. And then I started looking you up and checking if everything was legit. We started connecting and I noticed that you were the Program Director at Sirius XM. What does your day to day look like?

Rida: So my day to day is a lot of listening, choosing music, and a lot of figuring out which songs are doing well, which songs aren’t, and connecting with artists we’re passionate about. So a lot of my day is dedicated to music. I’m also a host, so I get to talk on the radio every day Monday to Friday, 10am to 2pm Eastern, and I get to talk about dance music. It’s great!

Joey: How did your passion for dance music start?

Rida: It’s actually a little crazy. I was 19 years old in college and kind of lost. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I ended up getting introduced to radio through a local radio contest in my area which I won to see Selena Gomez. So I went to this radio station with my sister and walked in and I was like, wow. This is so cool. I saw people around my age of 19, 20 walking around working. And they got to have first hand experiences with, like Selena Gomez, and I’m sure other artists as well. And then after a lot of persistence I ended up getting a few part time jobs at radio shows. A friend later recommended I should try interning at Sirius XM. At the time, I had no idea what it was.

Joey: Yeah, for our audience, could you tell us what’s the difference between Sirius and conventional stations?

Rida: So first of all, there’s a big difference between terrestrial radio and satellite (XM) radio. One of the biggest things is that there are no commercials. It’s a subscription, you have to pay.

Joey: So this is on the internet?

Rida: No, it’s in a lot of cars. So when you first buy a car, they give you like three months free and then people start listening to it and fall in love with it. Another plus is that you have a lot more freedom and creativity within the station. It’s also uncensored; you can curse, say whatever you want.

Yeah. And then on top of that, the number one thing out of all of this is that it’s national. It’s a national broadcast and service, meaning you can hear it all throughout the states. We have a massive audience. We just acquired Pandora as well. So now we kind of work hand in hand with Pandora. So now all together, we have 100 million subscribers, which is really cool.

It’s been three years since I’ve been on the air. Now I live and breathe dance music. I just got promoted to program director a few months ago, so now I have more of a hand in the music.

Joey: As Program Director, you can you can pick the music. I was wondering how you were able to play Josh’s bootleg on the radio?

Rida: To be honest, I don’t think we can. If they wanted to, the label could take it down. We also have a relationship with that record label. And again, at the end of the day, its exposure for their artists. I don’t see why they would want to take it down.

Joey: And you found this remix through SoundCloud? Is that like one of the main places where radio people discover new talent?

Rida: I mean, I always keep an eye on all the other playlists. There’s not many dance stations here. It’s not like the Netherlands where you go into the car and dance music is playing. So I kind of have to keep an eye out on playlists, whether it’s Apple or Spotify. I get music sent to me a lot as well. I have a folder that I fill up every week. And then once a week, I go through that folder.

Joey: So you do actually check them? That’s one of the biggest questions that I get from artists: can I send my music to radio programmers or other DJ’s? It seems like nobody’s listening.

Rida: I listen. Yeah, it is overwhelming because I can get up to up to like 100 emails a day with music. It has to make an impact on you right away. I know it’s really frustrating for artists but like, if I don’t like a song, I’m just gonna move on. I’ve worked on the channel for three years now. I know what the audience likes, and I know what kind of sound they’re looking for. And then I also know what kind of sound is good to experiment with. So within that time, I’ve kind of just figured out like, what works and what doesn’t, and when people send me music, of course I’ll listen, but I can’t respond to every single one. A lot of people then come back saying they’ve fixed something, and I’m like, please stop. So I’m really careful with what advice I give. Sometimes it’s hard because I don’t want to put their hopes up. Every week, I only get to choose like three or four songs to add to the playlist and it needs to outdo every single other song that I’m looking at. And that’s tough.

I get a lot of backlash and people say I’m picking favorites. And then I’m like, I promise you I’m listening. I just I can’t get back to every single person. I really can’t unless I hear the song and I’m like, it has just blown me away. It’s like a lottery ticket as in it doesn’t happen a lot. But sometimes you have one of those tracks where you just instantly feel like WOW.

I don’t want artists to feel discouraged when they send music to a program director. But they also need to be careful about rubbing a program director the wrong way. There’s actually some guy who sent me like four emails in one day. Then just kept replying to those emails being like, okay, here’s a radio edit. Okay, here’s an extended mix. Okay, here’s a remix. I’m like, calm down. I haven’t even listened to the original yet. And then he somehow found my desk phone number and called me and then texted me and I was like, stop, stop. Now I don’t want to listen to your like. There comes a certain point where you have to be professional. I understand consistency but like you have to do it in a professional way.

Joey: What is the right amount of persistence in your opinion? Like how many times should people email you?

Rida: Email me a song, and email me a follow up. Most likely, if they follow up, I will reply. And maybe, if you have a remix that comes out two weeks later that’s fine. Definitely don’t call my personal phone or text me. It’s really easy to know where the line is. The connection that you have with your relationships is really important in the music industry. And in the end, it’s a human business.

I want to organically enjoy the song. In my head, if you’ve rubbed me the wrong way, like a million times, then I probably won’t play your track. At the end of the day, I see people like Josh who have passion and potential to be professional in the industry. If you can’t talk to a radio program, how are you going to play festivals? How are you going to play massive shows? How are you going to deal with fans? The power of the favor is a big thing in the music industry. And that’s where the personal aspect comes in.

Joey: Well, thank you for giving some insights about the world of radio in the world of SiriusXM. I think a lot of artists will get some value out of this episode as in having a deeper look into the radio world since a lot of us don’t know what’s happening behind the scenes.

Thank you!

Joey: What’s up, Olly! How’s the temperature over there?

Olly: Yeah, it’s horrible man. I’m in this office room right now trying to work on music. I just cannot concentrate. I’m here sitting and sweating man. Don’t have air conditioning either.

Joey: I never like to have air conditioning in the studio since you always have that little zoom sound in the background.

Olly: For me, I’m literally producing with these V-Moda headphones all the time. These are what people use to DJ, but I’ve never been one to splash out on hardware like speakers or headphones. I spend a lot of my money on vst’s and stuff like that. Over the years, I’ve learned to get the mix right in these headphones, so I’m extremely scared to change to KRK Rokits or other speakers haha.

Joey: If it works, why would you change it?

Olly: I could have better. When I’ve been in the studio with Blasterjaxx, their studio is sick. When I’m working on music there, I think ‘damn,’ this stuff would really make a difference to my mix.

Joey: I think for a lot of producers, when they get to some kind of success, they start doing different stuff which changes what actually got them to success.

Olly: Yeah, that’s something I was worried about. I look at other people who release on the same label as me, and they’ve got these big studios and equipment, and I think, ‘why am I not doing that.’ I think the main reason is because as a person, when I get something and learn it, I just want to use it forever. I didn’t update FL Studio for a long time until I physically had to. I was kind of doing myself a disservice. But yeah, I don’t like to branch out, and I’m scared to try new things.

Joey: The funny thing is you probably think you could do better, but if you ask your fans, they won’t hear the difference between you mixing the track on an expensive studio or on your own.

Olly: I think that if I had a studio, the most important thing would be the inspiration. I come in here and wake up, and it’s the same thing every time. I would love to have a space where I could be inspired. And when I leave that place, I can stop thinking about music and stuff. Right now, I’m constantly thinking about stuff. One day, I’d like somewhere where I could separate life and music.

That was the same reason I started renting out a studio outside of my house. I became this prisoner of my own home. I was constantly in my bedroom. I would wake up, take off my bathrobe, have breakfast, and then go back upstairs.

It’s the same reason why I like going to Holland every month since it breaks my routine. I have this routine right now where I wake up, work on music, bounce whatever I make, go to the car, listen to the track in the gym with headphones, come back and work on it some more. It’s that routine that sometimes slows you down and puts you in a writer’s block.

Joey: Let’s talk about that routine, since you mentioned that you’re going to the Netherlands every month. Why is that?

Olly: My manager and I have been working together for many years now. I go stay with him, and he’s obviously the manager of Blasterjaxx as well, so we’re all one big team. I get to go to their office and use their studio. It’s just really fun since I work with other producers in the studio versus when I’m home I have to send stems. It brings a different edge to the track when the person’s sitting next to you.

Joey: Where in England do you live?

Olly: Very close to Newcastle. Here, there’s no EDM scene whatsoever; it’s mostly tech house. It makes me sad since I’ve never played once in England before. It’s one of my biggest goals. I’ve played all over the world, but not yet here. I know one day it will change, but for the moment it’s all about the house scene.

Joey: I feel like England has always been underground focused.

Olly: When Big Room was popular for two years, even the clubs that I would go to would play it. That was one of the reasons I started. I heard Sandro Silva’s ‘Epic’ in the club, and was like, ‘whoa.’ I was just starting to drink at 18 years old and was like, ‘damn this is a vibe.’ Nowadays it’s just sad to see that doesn’t exist. I don’t think you here Big Room in clubs anywhere really.

Joey: In the Netherlands, it’s kind of the same. EDM disappeared in the clubs as well. You can still hear it in festivals, but I think in the last couple of years, Dutch hip-hop and Dutch reggaeton culture took over. There’s also a big hardstyle community as well. The hardstyle community is such a strong fanbase; they’re very dedicated to the artist.

Olly: I’m hoping that, one day, Big Room might come back. I went through a long period of abandoning the sound which got me to where I am because I wanted to make music that was cool. I was making bass house and all different kinds of genres which really slowed me down and my career. All these artists have this sound, and I just abandoned my sound because I was chasing the hype. Nowadays, I’m happy with where I am.

Joey: Wait, let’s go back to the beginning. So, you mentioned you went to the club at 18…

Olly: I’m 25 now.

Joey: Whoah, you’re young!

Olly: So I discovered Big Room, and that made me feel things I had never heard before. Naturally, I wanted to download more music in that style. When you get all these songs no one else has heard, you think ‘oh I should be a DJ now’ so I got the equipment and started practicing. I played to like ten people at my university and had never played in a club before. I got very lucky with ‘Ecuador’ which got signed to Spinnin’.

Joey: Was it your first release?

OllY: I signed a track to Revealed on their ADE sample, and I think the next year was when I sent Ecuador. From then, everything changed. I got another track on Spinnin’ with Vinai. I worked with that hype and kept it going. Then the shows started to come in. Naturally, I’m quite a shy guy, so it was difficult to start. Like, one was a top 100 club in Switzerland, and I turned up there with one USB, and there were 20 songs on there. Everything was already set, some tracks at 150 bpm. I was booked to play Ecuador kind of songs, so the guy went and told my manager, he’s killing the floor and needs to start playing harder, I just panicked and said, ‘I don’t have anything else, this is all I have on my USB.’ That was honestly one of the worst nights of my entire life.

Everybody I knew started playing in these empty bars and worked their way up. But when I got offered a show, I felt bad. When there were seven days left to the show, I wished the time went slower. Now it’s the opposite. I love playing shows.

Joey: Yeah, that’s a completely different story of what you typically hear. Like you mentioned, usually, people start playing locally and build their way up. They have experience before they have the gig. But for you, because of a pretty big release, you had your first gig and were put on the spot.

Olly: Is that how you started? Playing in empty bars?

Joey: Yeah, I started at the real bottom: playing at children’s parties. I gathered my own stuff and took a hi-fi set from my grandpa. At first, I didn’t have a mixer; I had two regular CD players.

Olly: See, this is the dream story I think I should start telling people..

I thInk it’s good for people to see, though. I would honestly say I’m a lot more different than anyone else. There’s no one in my family with a musical background, and no one’s had any interest or job in music. All I did was pick up Fl-studio. I’m surprisingly really bad with computers, software, and all that stuff. I just found something I was super passionate about, and that was Big Room.

Joey: So you didn’t have any connections to music – no passion for computers, and still, you managed to make those songs. What happened in between?

Olly: People ask me, ‘How did you get here?’ Literally, anyone can do it however old you are. The only thing I had from a young age was creativity. I would spend hours making cars on Need for Speed II – not even racing the cars. A lot of when I was young carried on. I started making mashups and naturally started combining different samples to make my own songs. You look at Zedd, and he can play all these instruments, I had nothing man. I treated FL studio like a video game and played it over and over again. And after seven years, it turned out I was pretty good.

Joey: I really believe that philosophy. Eventually practice, makes better.

Olly: Some people who have a musical background and can at least play the piano. That’s definitely an advantage.

Joey: Actually, for me, I started out the same as you: no knowledge at all. My family wasn’t into music and I couldn’t read notes. I just did it all by hearing. I listened to what I was making and decided if I liked it. Then, I went to music school where I learned to read notes and chords. And later, the more I learned, the more it started to block me. I started creating this book of rules which I had to implement. That blocked my creativity because what sounded well, wasn’t really okay technically.

Olly: Recently, I decided to try and learn an instrument. I had around 8 or 9 piano lessons and bought a keyboard which has not been used once. Honestly, since I wanted it so badly, I did everything I could to make myself better. It turns out, I don’t really work in the way of forcing myself to try things I’m not. interested in. If I create a good melody, I know which notes are good together and which chords work.

Joey: I think that’s really important. You need to know yourself and how you learn. Some people prefer to learn from books, while others just do it and see what happens.

Olly: I can do things in FL studio and with VST’s, but I can’t tell you why these things happen. I just know that I clicked it three times and it sounded good.

Joey: And who cares? I’m looking at your Spotify. Somehow, your tracks are getting 22 million plays here, 2 million plays there. People don’t care. It’s the same with a Ferrari – nobody cares how it’s built. They only care about how fast it drives. How I see it, nobody’s interested in how they make it, of course, there’s a few people, but that’s mostly music producers.

Olly: The real fans, who aren’t producers, the ones who literally care about your music, they really don’t care.

The only reason why I wanted to do those things with the piano was because I looked at other people and compared myself. And that was the worst thing. That’s the number one thing you can never do.

I recently had to delete my social media from my phone. I was looking at my friends, and I’ve always looked at them being proud of them. But a few weeks ago, I was starting to think, ‘why aren’t you doing that, why aren’t you there.’ I just had to take a week off and take a step back. If there’s anyone out there suffering from the same thing, don’t worry about taking a step back from it all. I think we all do it, and it’s a hard thing to get away from.

Joey: I don’t think social media is a bad thing, but I can totally see how it becomes a problem for someone. It’s addicting, especially for younger people. They’re an easier target to compare themselves with others and feel that they’re not special enough.

Olly: In the past, I would compare myself to Martin Garrix’s music, and that would make me feel bad. Now, if I don’t have a show that weekend, and my friends do, that would make me feel bad. But yeah, that’s just life.

Joey: I was also in a period where I was looking at other DJs. The problem is that you’ll never know. It could be anything. It could be network, the fact that it just was a better track, or a track that the label was looking for. The only one that’s really struggling with it is you.

Olly: For me, I just want to be better than I was last year. That’s all I compare myself to now.

Joey: So what’s the main thing that you changed for yourself?

Olly: Basically, all I did was, when I had that period of comparing myself to my friends’ stuff, all I did was look at my path. My manager actually always does this. He’ll say, what about in 2017 when you couldn’t even look at a crowd when you were DJing, and now you just played in a festival with 10,000 people. That would click. But I think it’s very rare to have someone who constantly has that positivity. He has helped me a lot.

Nowadays, I sometimes have to tell myself, look where you were two years ago. There are some people out there who would love to be in my position. That’s what I think about and where I feel happy that I’ve been given that opportunity.

Joey: It’s really easy to forget all your successes.

Olly: Exactly. People who I haven’t seen it in a long time, say ‘wow you’re killing it right now’ because they’ve seen the good things. But I’ve also seen the not so good things.

Joey: Do you like touring?

Olly: Yes! In the past, I didn’t like it. There was one time where I was left in China. A photographer came with me and just went home. That was the craziest experience since I was so far from home. Nowadays, I can’t get enough of it.

When I’m hungry, that’s extremely hard – I get very hangry! But apart from that, I never thought I would be the kind of person who would enjoy traveling. I’m obsessed with Asia. When I get back from tour, I feel so refreshed and ready to get back into the studio. It’s a great balance for me.

Joey: I used to get hangry as well on tour. As a tip for you, always bring food that you can keep for a year as in peanuts or Snickers.

Olly: Yeah! I used to bring protein bars. I take an extra case with me full of food and stuff. For me, I can only eat western food. I’m really not into sushi, so when I go into places like that, my diet is bad. I usually come back really fat and sad since I ate so bad. So that’s something I need to work on to keep doing this for a long time. Being out of shape after eating all of those horrible foods is just going to affect your work when you’re home as well.

Joey: Do you workout on tour?

Olly: Not as much as I should. But I workout at home a lot. For me, I just get lazy somehow because I got used to sitting and waiting. Most of the time on tour, I would just want to sit in bed and watch Chinese TV. But now, my tour manager will take me out to places. We’ll go shoot some pictures, and even if I’m super tired, I’m in this new country and experience, and it really brings up my mood.

Joey: Let’s go to the music. You released you first main release on Spinnin’, and you’ve had some releases on Maxximize and Revealed. How are you looking at releasing music right now? There are a lot of options available right now to release your own music without labels. At the level where you’re at, what’s your opinion on that?

Olly: I think it’s important to release on these big labels because they are almost a separate group of fans. There are fans of the label, and then also my fans. I’ll always drop free downloads. But when I release on a label that I haven’t released in a while, people go crazy.

Joey: How did you first get signed with a big label? With the Spinnin’ release, how did that process go?

Olly: Well, the first one was with Revealed, and basically, my thing at the time was making unofficial releases and bootlegs. That’s how I kind of got discovered on SoundCloud.

Joey: I think I played a couple of your bootlegs, now that you mention it.

Yeah! I used to love it, man. That’s still a thing that makes me click.

Joey: Is that how you started building your fanbase?

Olly: Yeah, just by bootlegs. Because people are going to search for a remix of a big song, not for an unknown artist’s original mix. That’s how I targeted more people, and basically, I got a few things played on Hardwell on Air. And then I got an email from Seb from Revealed asking if I had any demos for the ADE sample. So I panicked and made a song with two really talented guys. I didn’t do much on it, I did 5–10% of the work, and that track got signed. So that was my really lucky entry.

With Spinnin’, I also think I was very lucky. I made this Ecuador remix in 3–4 hours; in one night. Basically, Hardwell played it on Hardwell on Air, and they tag both of the artists on Twitter. I got a DM from Sash! who made the original, and he said, ‘yo, who said you could remix this song?’ And I was like, ‘oh man, this is going to go bad.’ And then I got an email from Spinnin’, saying ‘looks like we’re going to release the Ecuador track.’ But a track that took me 3–4 hours was probably the most successful track I ever did.

Joey: You hear that quite often, that the most successful tracks take less time. Do have any idea why that is?

Olly: It’s the cool idea which takes time. When I have a good idea, I can finish a song really quickly – especially when it’s a remix or a bootleg where you already have this amazing hook from them.

Joey: I think that’s the biggest difference. When you’re able to finish a track in that short amount of time, you’re not really thinking about what you’re doing. Everything comes straight from the heart, not from the brain. When you start to overthink, things start to break down.

Olly: With Ecuador, I was making it as an unofficial remix that I would put on SoundCloud for free. I didn’t have these label restraints. I just made it for free, and I think having that much creativity helped.

I recommend it to anyone trying to get started, but also when you’re already at a decent level. It’s always a great tool to build a fanbase – every DJ wants to play a good bootleg because crowds love them. The crowd is also going to look for remixes, and they will find your tracks in it as well – the knife cuts on both sides.

Joey: So after you got your foot in the door with Revealed and Spinnin’, how did things go from there? What changed?

Olly: First of all, it was extremely easy for me to get music to the people I wanted. That was super important. I always wondered how people got that first contact, but once you have it, it becomes so much easier. You can get feedback, they can tell you what works and what doesn’t work. But I also started to feel a bit of that box. That was a bit hard at the start, but as I got more tracks on there, I started to get more confident and work with other artists on the label. And then I could just really make music from the heart again, and that box kind of slowly disappeared.

Joey: I think that’s something you hear a lot: getting your foot between the door, getting that first contact. And with you, it just happened by creating bootlegs.

Olly: Obviously, nowadays Soundcloud isn’t as powerful as back then. But I think if you get a remix played at the Tomorrowland mainstage, it still has the same impact on your career.

Joey: So what’s something you’re focusing on right now? What do you think is something people should focus on right now in the industry?

Olly: I think people should focus on what they enjoy deep down. As I said before, I was chasing the hype train for a few years, which meant I got fewer releases and less shows. So I think that for me now, I know Big Room isn’t where it used to be, but I enjoy making that genre and I’m good at it. I’m going to put everything I can into it and make a more creative version of my sound. If you’re just starting, you’re gonna want to make the ‘in’ thing – I know that. You’re going to want to chase the hype. If you’re not really into that sound, you’re never going to be good enough to release on a label. Deep down, you need to be super into it. You have to take the time and think about what you actually enjoy. Because one day, that genre can become big again.

Joey: I actually had a talk with Bart B More about this. I knew him in my town when I was playing. At the start of my career, he was going really hard because he had this track on Toolroom. His sound was new. He started touring, and then the industry changed and went more EDM. He didn’t like that at all and he just kind of disappeared because he didn’t like making EDM. And now, he’s come back and totally redefined himself. He’s started to release the same kind of music, and it’s really successful again. He’s now signed to STMPD.

Olly: Also, because you’re looking at those people’s tracks, for example, Mike Williams, you’re never going to make future house like him because he’s already onto the next wave. You’re always going to be chasing that circle. Just stay where you are.

Joey: When you’re following trends, you’re always second.

What’s the thing you would have liked to have known before you started this whole journey?

Olly: That’s a tough one. One thing I wish I should’ve known is that money is not that easy to come by. I left my job way to early and thought it would be a lot easier because you see what kind of fees DJ’s get. But what I didn’t understand was all the costs you have. So don’t leave your job too early. Try to make as much time as possible, but don’t expect to make a full-time wage straight away. That has to come in time.

As a producer, you cannot make money from music unless you are creating all of the song, releasing samples, and all those other things. You need to have a DJ profile if you want to be a successful artist financially. We all want it as a job. Just don’t jump the gun too early.

Joey: What I always think as well is you don’t have to quit your full job all at once. There’s a middle in that whole story. The minute you get financial stress because you need to pay rent or need to pay the car, it’s killing. Financial stress kills creativity; it kills your positivity; it ruins everything. So, I would recommend maintaining a decent income as long as it’s possible to combine with your music. Most people quit early because of their ego; they feel like they’re already there when they really aren’t.

Well, thank you for being so open about everything, man! I really appreciate you talking about this kind of stuff but also the problems you’ve been having in your career. I think that’s important. The things we see on social media is only 1% of the career. So thanks for being open and sharing your whole story!

Olly: I know a lot of people listen to your stuff who want a career in this. I’ll always be honest because I think it’s good to see the other side. That’s the only way you can really make it in this business: if you know everything.

Joey: Best of luck with the rest of your career!